Can Nations Have Children?

[Germany]

Recently I’ve seen a fair number of insightful, light-hearted discussions in the C-box regarding nation-spirits and whether or not it’s even possible for them to produce children. Since there’s actually nothing in this site’s canon that says one way or the other ( I say only that they can’t biologically create other nations the same way humans create other humans ), and since there are still questions as to what might be allowed and what might not be here, I thought it’d be a good idea to open a thread for anyone who wishes to discuss this topic to do so freely and openly here, and maybe after all’s said and done we can vote an official stance into Site Canon.

Okay, so obviously our nation-spirits are not just hollow walking representations of whatever the current popular trends are in their citizens. They have their more supernatural attributes, yes, and there is a magic that governs them, but in so many ways they are also human, thinking the way humans do and having the same wants, needs, and urges. Obviously they have bones, muscles, red blood, and all that good stuff, but are they biologically identical to humans inside and out, or are some minor details different?

This is where headcanon comes into play, and really, a person could find a way to justify any stance he or she wanted. Perhaps you already have a headcanon of your own you’d love to share here.

As it turns out, I do in fact have my own headcanon regarding this, but this isn’t an issue I really care about, and to be honest I didn’t expect it to come up at all, so I didn’t bother making it official Site Canon. So, to kick-start this little discussion thread, I may as well go ahead and share:

My headcanon is that male ♂ countries can reproduce, but the children they create are entirely human with nothing at all special about them apart from just having an inborn desire to be really patriotic. If I were writing a story about it I’d give the offspring of nations a special shine or glow to their eyes, or some other kind of special magical marker that only nation-spirits could see, as I do like the idea of them being easily recognizable to nation-spirits. To prevent the problem of countries being overrun with the children of particularly amorous nation-spirits like France, the magic which governs them will only allow a male nation to have up to 4 children alive at any one time. Any potentially child-producing fun they have when their quota’s filled and they’re just firing blanks. So if, for example, France were to go out and sire 4 children all at once, he would have to wait for them to grow old and die before he could make any more.

As for the females ♀, I see them as being created without egg cells and thus being infertile. The reason is because ( keeping in tune with the rest of my headcanon ) the magic forces them to do whatever their bosses command. Now, all throughout history, the vast majority of the leaders of nations have been male, and even today there are many more male leaders than female ones. Many men wouldn’t take advantage of having ( for all intents and purposes ) a female slave, but there would also be many that would, and in this case the governing magic would be acting mercifully by sparing female nation-spirits from potentially being forced to have their bosses’s children.

There’s my take on it.

My second-favorite stance is that they’re all sterile, as it bypasses a lot of these awkward questions. XD

So, what does everyone else think? Have your own headcanon? Ideas for poll options?

Pretty much anything could be on the table right now, with the exceptions of them creating other countries through biological reproduction and male pregnancies, as both go against the already-established Site Canon.

[Finland]

Ooh, an interesting discussion!

I apologize if any of the following makes anyone uncomfortable; I tend to use biological words which sometimes make people squeamish.

I suppose I have a pretty vanilla headcanon - they're all sterile. Both males and females can engage in pleasurable sex, but neither have gametes with which to produce offspring. However, both males and females would appear to have normal anatomy (both inside and out) since, for example, ovaries are not only needed to produce eggs, but also to produce secondary sexual characteristics, such as a large bust and wide hips. This would account for the chest pains Hungary complains of, part of normal female development, as well as France's escapades without having hundreds of children.


Part of my reasoning stems from the fact that, at least in this site's canon, the nations are unable to go against their boss' orders. Having a child, whether the nation wants it or as the result of an accident, most often would not be the desire of their leaders. This is especially true in the past when most of the nations were also leaders in their armies. It would be hard for a female nation to fight while heavily pregnant or for any nation to lead a charge with an infant in tow.

My second reason for the nations being sterile is that since they are not normal mortals themselves, their children would most likely be something different, as well. For a nation that would have a baby with a non-nation, this seems to contradict the rule that they do not wish to reveal their nation-spirit status to humans. Even if the nation parent did not stick around after the birth (or the inception in the case of male nations impregnating female humans), there would be no way to hide that a half-nation/half-human offspring remained to be a child or adolescent while his human parent aged and died.


tl;dr - They have normal-looking bits and develop normally, but are all sterile.

[France]

Ah, this makes for a good discussion. I personally think they should all be sterile. Why? Mainly because I think it would keep things nice and simple, and we would not have to rely more heavily on magical elements. Obviously we have to have some mystical elements given the nature of what the nations are, but I think adding more would make things just more complex.

So sterile countries sound good to me.

[juni]

*dreams of Finbabies are crushed* ._.

[japan]

If we think about it, america resembled finland in the beginning, yet he just appeared. Same with Canada, who resembles France. I think of nation pregnancy as something magical; it can't be planned.

Maybe if Nation A & B make love nothing happens. Perhaps when there's a civil war going on in the land, they /can/ get pregnant. But because having a baby means that this 'baby' comes from the nation mother (or father) they are separating from them, making a region, or even a country. (I don't like characterizations for states, provinces, prefectures, regions, etc, however.)

For example, the situation where North and South Korea separated. Perhaps S. Korea conceived N.Korea? (I just imagine S.Korea being really excited and then having his hopes dashed.) Maybe becoming pregnant can be a way of sensing disturbances in the country. It doesn't even have to be sexual.

Of course, miscarriages mean that the people in the country failed to separate from the original country. (Canada and Quebec? )

This is just something that came to mind when I sat here thinking about it.

[juni]

Interesting. Does that mean we'll be getting into the realm of male pregnancy? I don't recommend that, for canon reasons I'll explain later. If we're not going the realm of male pregnancy, then how would we explain away the fact that females would still have such pregnancies? I honestly can't think of any male equivalent to even things but it seems odd that there would be such a massive difference in how secession would work between male and female nations; how would we explain such a disparity? The simplest way, I think would to be to continue with the idea of completely sterile nations and say that neither male nor female nations can get pregnant at all as one of the myriad differences that separate nations from mortal humans.

Besides, based upon prescedent (that is, how others have handled such "disturbances" on this forum before us), secession crises, revolutions and civil unrest are a cause of illness, insanity, other more mental effects, and I'd rather keep that tradition for the sake of continuity. I think it fits better.

And then, of course, there's the fact that there's no case in canon where nations either 1) get pregnant or 2) are physically birthed from any nation in any way. Even those nations that are "spawned" from unrest and revolution simply somehow appear. For example, when the Roman Empire collaped, he didn't suddenly get pregnant and spawn his descendants before dying...rather, his descendants appeared as protonations before his collapse (which I guess could be a way of the powers that be to herald the eventual outcome of whatever). But this is opening an entirely new can of worms; the circumstances surrounding a nations "birth" can be saved for another thread, if we so choose to discuss it.

Anywho, to get back onto the topic of nations having children...no. Just no. Not ever, for anyone. Why? Because it makes no logical sense for male nations to be able to go around having kids with whomever they so please if they so please, while female nations may never ever have children of their own if they so decided they actually wanted some. Why would male nations' reproductive systems work "like normal" while females suddenly have no means of reproduction? They come from the same origins (what they are, though, I care not to think on at the moment) and are, after all, two halves of the same gender spectrum; why would one half of that spectrum be sterile, and the other half fertile?

In my mind, either both male and female nations are fertile, or they are both sterile. It's much simpler that way, and we don't have to come up with explanations as to why the powers that be went all drunk-crazy when they made nation spirits.

*edit*

To copypasta an idea a found and remembered and posted in the c-box, we could basically say that nations are anatomically identical to humans (sans the imortality and general superhuman strength/stamina/whathaveyou), but when it comes to reproduction they have full choice over whether or not they can get pregnant or make someone else pregnant.

Oh, use Lud's idea of any such offspring of nations being fully human. I'm sure such humans would be rare in history, though.

[Lithuania]

To weigh in on the debate, I'll keep it short and sweet. In my headcanon, the nations can't make babies.

I think that the citizens of their country are their "children" to some extent. I mean, they are quite literally the motherland or fatherland to their people, which is why I don't think they can biologically reproduce in the conventional sense.

Although I like the idea of them making a family in AU settings. I can imagine AU human!Austria and human!Hungary having a kid together, for example. <3

[juni]

That's a good point, but as I said in c-box (and am reposting here just so we have a reliable record of it >_> ), are we sure that's a reason why nations can't have babies, or is that a reason why they would have a strong aversion to having babies?

And as I think on it, I wonder if that same aversion would still apply to other nations' "children."

[japan]

I agree with you on the male pregnancy. I find it unappealing, not because I am against the idea in real life, but because fanfiction has forever ruined whatever views I have on male pregnancy, when it comes to fictional characters. My idea is something I think is good to entertain but bad to enforce. (Just couldn't get the idea of N.Korea tearing itself out of S.Korea's abdomen, tearing him apart~)

I think nations being able to conceive babies is also a bit unrealistic .. The child would have to watch as they grow up, growing older and older, while their parents do not age. It's just.. there's a whole lot of other issues that make the concept too ... messy? I think this is also a good idea, but not for a serious historical roleplay. (I think it's excellent for AU though.)

i was thinking about the idea of, why can male nation spirits ejaculate but female nation spirits don't get their periods? (these are assumed ideas by many fanfiction, and doujinshi writers.) More importantly, can we present evidence to justify these assumptions?

I believe that menstruation lasts only for awhile .. unless I'm a really messed up kid and I didn't pay attention when they taught that class.. Since Nation spirits have similar to exact same bodies as normal humans, (except for the magical super strength, healing powers) I would believe that the female body only comes with a set amount of egg cells? Perhaps as the nation got older and older, they hit menopause, and egg cells no longer exist in their bodies. This doesn't have to be until the nation spirit becomes old with age. As they age slower, they expend their egg cells much quicker.

A male body produces sperm all their life. Not to mention, if female nation-spirits had their period every month, the world would not be a very happy place ..

So my conclusion, after much speculation (lol not really ort) is that it's not that they aren't sterile, but the woman nation-spirit is. I'm not sure if this could be seen as misogyny, and I'm sorry if people take it that way, I really don't mean to.

Even if nation spirits could conceive children, I wouldn't see why they would even want to. the child would be unable to live a normal life. (And as someone else mentioned earlier, why would they be allowed in the first place? It's too risky for the country.)

[Finland]

I'd like to address a few of your points, Japan.


First, your argument for menopause. They aren't human, so who's to say that it's simply age that makes a female nation infertile? What if a major political turnover were to happen in a country that had been around (and perhaps inactive) for hundreds of years so that their country suddenly experienced a boom in economy, a major increase in population, new technologies, etc.? Would this not factor into whether or not the female nation was fertile?

As an example, it's always been my crack!headcanon that Finland goes into heat during Midsummer, a pagan holiday originally created to bring fertility to 'summer brides'. Would female nations not experience these same things during their own rituals?

Menopause also means a cessation of production of female sex hormones, but Hungary, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. sure don't look manly to me, and I've never heard any of them complain of having hot flashes.

It's the fact that they aren't humans that makes things so convoluted and why I believe it would be simpler to make them all sterile, doing away with the need for the menstrual cycle altogether.

...

Second, your comment about ejaculation. Having an orgasm doesn't mean sperm is passed. Only a very small percentage of semen is made up of sperm. The rest of it is various fluids (namely lipids and acids) from other parts of the male reproductive system. These fluids are used to transport sperm and to change the pH of the female's reproductive tract, but do not actually contribute to impregnating the female. Otherwise, men with vasectomies would cease having sex and we all know that's not true. Male nations seeking sex for pleasure would still be able to attain it whether they were virile or not.

...

I do agree with everyone that male pregnancy shouldn't even be considered outside of crack/AU settings. No uterus; end of story.

I also agree with Liet that most nations would have a strong bond with their people. I personally RP so that Fin can sense strong emotion (excitement, discontent, distress, etc.) amongst his people and that he cares deeply for them, much like a parent would. It's closer than a human parent's bond in some ways, like how when famines hit and his people starve, he becomes skinny as well. Of course, this is a personal style and I'm sure that not every nation at every point in history would do the same.

Sweden raises a good point that it's illogical for males to be able to reproduce while females cannot. I don't want to get into biology too much more, but all babies in utero start out as the same gender. As they grow, they develop into either a male or female. Therefore, since all reproductive organs start out as the same part, I don't see why the males' parts would develop to be fertile and the females' would develop to be infertile. I suppose this contradicts my own argument that they aren't human, didn't develop in a womb themselves and therefore don't follow the rules of biology, but in our world, this would make sense.
...

Therefore, in an effort to simplify, I maintain that all nations are sterile.

[America]

I'm on the 'all nations are sterile' boat as well~ Proto-nations basically just appear out of thin air, right? Though there's no reason they can't enjoy sex with each other and/or normal humans. I'd think a nation experiencing a big economic boom might be feeling friskier than usual, though~

((My headcanon says Alfred slept around a LOT during his time as Hippimerica~ Free love and all that~))

The nations that have actual children/grandchildren in the show canon makes me think that they're not really 'offspring', per say, as they are successors, generated in the face of impending social and political upheaval...

TL;DR - THEY'RE SHOOTING BLANKS AND BABY NATIONS COME FROM THE STORK~

[Germany]

Wow, what an interesting, lively debate!

I still like my headcanon, of course ( obviously xD ), but I like Sweden’s edited version as well — probably slightly more for the context of this roleplay.

I’ve noticed that most of the people in the sterile camp seem to want it largely for reasons of parsimony. Not a bad reason: it does keep things simpler. I personally like the idea of people who want to say that their nation has had human children at some point having that option even if they decide never to use it.

It’s also been argued that it wouldn’t make sense for males to be able to reproduce while females can’t. To this, all I have to say is we are dealing with a fictional universe where magic is heavily used ( it creates the nation-spirits, maintains the link they have with their people and land, forces them to reveal themselves to their bosses and do as their bosses command, makes them heal super-fast, vanish to their bosses when they “die”, etc. etc. ). We can make up any reason we want to why males should be fertile and not females. Whether or not that’s fair, and whether or not we should do it are different matters entirely, and they’re open to debate. All I’m saying is that we by no means have to stick purely to biology and what is possible in the real world.

As for the way a nation feels about its people, exactly how that plays out varies by writer. All of them obviously have a deep multi-faceted bond and feel a special connectedness to their citizens, and all of them care greatly about them ( else they wouldn’t be nations xD ), but as I said, writers handle this differently. I don’t personally see the relationship a nation has with its people as being like that of child and parent, mostly because children can’t exist without parents, but potential parents can exist without children. Put another way people can exist without nations, but nations can’t exist without people. One came before the other. Nations arose because of their people, not the other way around. Also, it is up to the people to take care of their nation and ensure it runs well, or it collapses ( an example is ancient Egypt, where the pharaohs started getting very ineffectual near the end resulting in a weakened nation that was easily overtaken by the Persians ). However, some writers do see it this way, and choose to have their nation view it this way too. There’s nothing wrong with that at all, and I actually think it’s great that we have such variety ( It’s led to some interesting talks between Toris and Ludwig for sure, where Toris is calling his citizens “my children” while Ludwig continues to refer to Germans as “my people”, subtly showing the differences in the way these two view the relationship they have with their citizens. Toris is more maternal, whereas Ludwig views himself more as his peoples’ guardian and protector, related in the way any two humans on the planet are related to each other, yet also distinct. He’d have no qualms with sleeping with any of his people. ).


About having to watch their children grow old and die, as Sweden pointed out this is one reason why a nation may not want to have children, not a reason why they can’t. This is also assuming they would definitely know about their child, and want to stay and raise it ( or at least keep close watch on it ), which, like with humans, may not always be the case. Obviously if we were to decide to use the idea Sweden proposed they would know, but again free will and personal choice on the part of both the character and the player comes into play here. People can choose to do actions which others may view as wrong and/or immoral, and so can their nations.



Bottom line? Sterile is a viable option that's good for parsimony, but I favor giving the writers on here a choice. Being as how we're dealing with magic in a fictional setting, the issue is whether or not we should give people that option, not whether or not we can. ( And it was never about them producing other nations this way, just non-nations, as the canon already states proto-nations aren't created this way ).

[Finland]

May 21, 2011 16:02:32 GMT -5 Germany said:

About having to watch their children grow old and die, as Sweden pointed out this is one reason why a nation may not want to have children, not a reason why they can’t.

While I don't disagree with you that this would deter them from wanting to have a baby, I do disagree that this would not be a hindrance from actually doing the act.

Wouldn't a child who ages while his parents don't realize his/her parents are not human, contradicting the site canon rule we have that says they don't wish to reveal their human-nation status to anyone but their leaders? I'm sure a senior citizen would demand an explanation as to why his/her parents still appear to be in their 20s.


In the end, I suppose it doesn't matter to me. I don't ever plan on having Finland impregnate anyone, so whatever the choice is is fine with me. However, I do feel that whatever goes for males should also go for females. It's not fair for RPers of female nations that wish to do a roleplay in which their character becomes pregnant but are not allowed to while it's perfectly fine to have an RP where a male nation has a child.

[Germany]

While I don't disagree with you that this would deter them from wanting to have a baby, I do disagree that this would not be a hindrance from actually doing the act.

I wasn't saying it wouldn't be a hindrance from doing the act, so we don't actually disagree at all there. xD As I said it would depend on the writer and character in question.

As for the Site Canon, I never said a nation desired only to reveal itself to its leaders, only that they desire to reveal themselves to as few humans as possible. So if, for example, Egypt got on close intimate terms with a human and considered him a really, really close friend, he might at some point wish to reveal himself to him, especially if he trusted him. That's always been allowed by Site Canon. I don't see the harm in it because those types of deep friendships/relationships are relatively rare, and they already have to reveal themselves to the boss and his cabinet ( not close friends, in most cases ) anyway. The same would be true of their children, assuming they had any.

Short story? Unless it's the boss and his higher-ups, nations only reveal themselves to people whom they love ( romantically or otherwise ) deeply and trust. It's not something they take lightly, and they may choose to reveal or not reveal themselves for any number of personal reasons.

Even though I'm in the fertile camp, I do think there should definitely be limits on how many children they can have alive at one time, for just so many reasons, including the "wanting as few people to know as possible" one.

Of course, as I have said many times before this is not something I care passionately about and I'll be happy no matter what we decide. Just tossing my views out there.

[japan]

Maybe it should be considered AU if they can conceive?